I’ve tried your new installer with anaconda and it didn’t work that well for me. Maybe we need to take a fresh look at the problem of installation.
I wrote this article and posted it at the linux box.org that is interesting. Thought you might like to read it.
Zeek Greko
The author of the ‘GNU/Linux Home Desktop Kit PC Project (Gates Crusher)’ series has submitted an interesting idea about how to procede with selecting a distro for the Linux Box Contest. Considering that it was his series [Part1 Gates Crusher, Part2 Why a Contest, Part3 Why Not Lindows, Part4 Proposed Core Specs, Part5 User Defaults] that spawned The Linux Box Contest, it is very exciting to have him participate in submitting ideas for what direction the contest should procede. I’ll be waiting in the forum to dicuss his ideas with everyone else.
The situation of inadequate installers and wasted, redundant package downloading exists for all distributions presently. Free or commercial, distributions that use the same base distribution could share the following proposed common solution. Namely a universal live net installer CD with distributions that are simply an apt source list (recipe) with added customization packages and scripts. This fits well with the current trend toward dynamic package repositories the various core distributions are moving to.
Retracing My Steps To This Idea:
While considering the logistical factors involved in successfully executing a contest for a full featured, community supported, GNU/Linux home desktop kit PC (Gates Crusher) distribution as is being attempted here at The Linux Box. The means of installation for the various entries presented a problem. Assuming for a moment that since this would be a community project, the base distribution (Debian Sid or Sarge) was agreed upon. Since an overwhelming number of the packages required for each contest entry would be identical, the downloading of complete distributions would be a waste of band width, and the number of potential testers would be limited to only those with a lot of time and hi speed Internet access.
Enter The (scripted) Recipe Distro:
If instead, we had and used, a stand alone live CD as a universal net installer, each distro/contest entry would only need to maintain a proxy apt sources list (to the exclusion of any others) and those packages, customizations and scripts that are unique to that distro. This type of rearranging of the traditional apt sources by using proxy apt sources that are unique to each distro, would make installation, security updates and maintenance of a distribution in real time easier. The distros proxy apt sources would only show those packages that are pre tested and known to work well by the distro’s maintainers and would include customization packages and scripts as necessary.
Switching distro’s and or contest entries that are based on the same core distribution would be a simple matter of swapping to the new distro’s specific proxy apt sources list, leaving the very powerful apt-get to add or remove packages as specified. Most of the packages would remain unchanged and the removed packages could remain in the apt cache for rolling back to the previous distro.
This would be a net install method that is always current, rather than downloading iso images that are sometimes months old, then having to download half again the entire distro while updating because GNU/Linux packages are updated quite frequently. This also, because each distro’s has customized protected apt sources, would in effect be like a GPL’d, community based, click and run system without the vendor lock in. Plus the apt sources can point to the locations for downloading non free and proprietary apps and or libdvdcss for those people living in countries where it is legal to easily get their DVD players working. Leaving the choice to the end user as to what of these apps they want on their systems.
Current Live Knoppix Style Installable Distro’s:
The installable live CD has become very popular because it is easy for just about anyone with minimal GNU/Linux experience to successfully install a running Linux system. They also know beforehand whether or not their hardware is supported rather than going the old installer route just to find that they have no working sound card or modem etc…
Knoppix was a great step ahead for GNU/Linux. When it finds all of the hardware on a particular PC, it makes GNU/Linux look good. When it doesn’t however, it makes GNU/Linux look less inviting. Especially when it doesn’t discover and set up known supported hardware. Case in point, an internal hardware modem is never found and setup by Knoppix, probably because the /dev/ttyS4 doesn’t exist by default in Debian. Win modems are also not usually found and setup because of the partial closed source driver modules are not included.
Live Knoppix Style Stand Alone Universal Installer:
Instead of installing the distro that is on these quickly outdated live CD’s, a customized version of these live CD’s would be used as a live net installer for any distribution based on the proxy apt sources model as explained above. An a- political Live CD who’s sole purpose is to discover and set up any and all hardware that can be legally supported, letting the end user decide whether or not to use the proprietary device drivers that would be provided on the installer CD. It would set up localizations, partitioning, and other base level functions, then use this as the base for hosting a user friendly graphical net install for whatever distro the end user chooses by typing in manually or browsing the Internet to the chosen distro’s home page and clicking on the (unique to that distro’s) apt sources list.
The benefits of this stand alone live CD net installer are many. A stand alone live installer would have it’s own version, update and release schedule that could speed up it’s development because it would not be tied to a whole distribution’s much longer release cycle.
Because the on CD distribution would not be used for actual installation, it need not be updated as often, just the installer functions would need to be updated.
It would reduce the bandwidth wasting download redundancy that is typical when updating distros that have been committed to iso’s and CD’s.
Not having to reinvent the wheel and contend with the complexities of building an installer for each new distribution would open the door to niche distro’s like home theater PC’s and such other special interests like turn key solutions for family run restaurants etc..(I know, like as if we need more distro’s. But is it that we have too many distro’s or is it that we have too many inadequate installers. If installation became trivial, who cares how many choices there are. If a niche distro can get a local pizza shop, your local plummer, your town library or a home based craft shop up and running with all the specific applications they need, I say great! Bring em on.)
Any Core distribution hosting a dynamic package repository like CVS could convert to, and take advantage of this installation method, and it would make sense for the whole community to get behind development of a live installer CD fully compatible with the various package management systems. As it is now they seem to be converging somewhat (apt for rpm etc.).
Commercial distro’s could also benefit from this type of installer by being able to sell a nicely boxed owners manual and an update-able multi session Live net installer CD on CDR, CDRW media or update-able to a temporary partition on the hard drive for those without cdwriters. This would increase the in store retail shelf life of their expensive boxed offerings exponentially. No matter how long they had been sitting on a retail shelf, customers would still get the current version. Of course some package labeling policies would need to be changed (no version numbers), but at great benefit to the distributions bottom lines in reduced outdated packaging costs, while keeping their offerings in view of the public in retail stores and outlets.
Because of the rapid speed of GNU/Linux development and security updates, the only method of installing that makes sense to me anymore is the net install style of installation because when updating off the shelf CD’s you end up doing nearly a complete new net install anyway. This method eliminates a time wasting step while increasing a products shelf life.
Pre Kit PC Distro-Contest Installer-Contest?:
Perhaps we should consider developing and then conducting a Live Net Installer competition before launching a contest that addresses the final fit and finish of a complete full featured GNU/Linux home desktop PC, or some variation on this theme. The delay would be worth it if it would mean getting it right the first time. An installer like this would certainly simplify the logistical problems of the contest, and it would greatly expand the number of platforms and hardware that the contest PC’s distro would support over and above the (The Linux Box’s) specified hardware. It would also let the distro contest entrants and reviewers concentrate on matters other than the installer, which if you have been following GNU/Linux for any amount of time, you must agree that most distro reviews seldom get much past the installer. It would be very nice to see separate reviews on the merits of a stand alone installer ( did it find your hardware and set everything up?) and the various distro’s fit, finish and usability (are there sensible defaults for all installed applications?).
Conclusion:
Quite possibly, by leveraging Klaus Knopper’s vision of a live CD, further developing it’s advanced hardware detection to what would be a quite rapidly maturing universal Live net installer CD, the GNU/Linux community as a whole could finally get past the installation of GNU/Linux and move on to the other matters of fit, finish and user friendliness that our coveted prospective MS Windows converts have become accustomed to and expect. Why do I say coveted? Because each and every new or converted user of GNU/Linux gives strength and political clout to the community as a whole. Third party application developers, proprietary or otherwise won’t throw their hats into the GNU/Linux ring until the numbers make sense, and politicians respond to issues based on polls by the numbers. We need these numbers to counter the threats of software patents and the freight train known as Digital Rights Management/Trusted Computing that professor Eben Moglen referred to during his talk at Harvard University’s JOLT (Journal on Law and Technology) as likening it to the military take over of the hardware of the net. We also need many more people using GNU/Linux friendly media and document formats to counter the rapidly encroaching threat of Microsoft’s proprietary formats as the defacto standard. That if successful will impose a virtual Microsoft document transfer tax on us all. It would be sad to need to install a Microsoft DRM client on top of, and a controller of, our free as in freedom GNU/Linux boxes in order to access any desirable proprietary content.
I’ve tried your new installer with anaconda and it didn’t work that well for me. Maybe we need to take a fresh look at the problem of installation.
I wrote this article and posted it at the linux box.org that is interesting. Thought you might like to read it.
Zeek Greko
The Linux Box http://thelinuxbox.org
http://thelinuxbox.org/Net_installer.html
Stand Alone Knoppix Live Net Installer Would Enable Recipe Distro’s
posted March 27, 2004
by Anonymous
The author of the ‘GNU/Linux Home Desktop Kit PC Project (Gates Crusher)’ series has submitted an interesting idea about how to procede with selecting a distro for the Linux Box Contest. Considering that it was his series [Part1 Gates Crusher, Part2 Why a Contest, Part3 Why Not Lindows, Part4 Proposed Core Specs, Part5 User Defaults] that spawned The Linux Box Contest, it is very exciting to have him participate in submitting ideas for what direction the contest should procede. I’ll be waiting in the forum to dicuss his ideas with everyone else.
The situation of inadequate installers and wasted, redundant package downloading exists for all distributions presently. Free or commercial, distributions that use the same base distribution could share the following proposed common solution. Namely a universal live net installer CD with distributions that are simply an apt source list (recipe) with added customization packages and scripts. This fits well with the current trend toward dynamic package repositories the various core distributions are moving to.
Retracing My Steps To This Idea:
While considering the logistical factors involved in successfully executing a contest for a full featured, community supported, GNU/Linux home desktop kit PC (Gates Crusher) distribution as is being attempted here at The Linux Box. The means of installation for the various entries presented a problem. Assuming for a moment that since this would be a community project, the base distribution (Debian Sid or Sarge) was agreed upon. Since an overwhelming number of the packages required for each contest entry would be identical, the downloading of complete distributions would be a waste of band width, and the number of potential testers would be limited to only those with a lot of time and hi speed Internet access.
Enter The (scripted) Recipe Distro:
If instead, we had and used, a stand alone live CD as a universal net installer, each distro/contest entry would only need to maintain a proxy apt sources list (to the exclusion of any others) and those packages, customizations and scripts that are unique to that distro. This type of rearranging of the traditional apt sources by using proxy apt sources that are unique to each distro, would make installation, security updates and maintenance of a distribution in real time easier. The distros proxy apt sources would only show those packages that are pre tested and known to work well by the distro’s maintainers and would include customization packages and scripts as necessary.
Switching distro’s and or contest entries that are based on the same core distribution would be a simple matter of swapping to the new distro’s specific proxy apt sources list, leaving the very powerful apt-get to add or remove packages as specified. Most of the packages would remain unchanged and the removed packages could remain in the apt cache for rolling back to the previous distro.
This would be a net install method that is always current, rather than downloading iso images that are sometimes months old, then having to download half again the entire distro while updating because GNU/Linux packages are updated quite frequently. This also, because each distro’s has customized protected apt sources, would in effect be like a GPL’d, community based, click and run system without the vendor lock in. Plus the apt sources can point to the locations for downloading non free and proprietary apps and or libdvdcss for those people living in countries where it is legal to easily get their DVD players working. Leaving the choice to the end user as to what of these apps they want on their systems.
Current Live Knoppix Style Installable Distro’s:
The installable live CD has become very popular because it is easy for just about anyone with minimal GNU/Linux experience to successfully install a running Linux system. They also know beforehand whether or not their hardware is supported rather than going the old installer route just to find that they have no working sound card or modem etc…
Knoppix was a great step ahead for GNU/Linux. When it finds all of the hardware on a particular PC, it makes GNU/Linux look good. When it doesn’t however, it makes GNU/Linux look less inviting. Especially when it doesn’t discover and set up known supported hardware. Case in point, an internal hardware modem is never found and setup by Knoppix, probably because the /dev/ttyS4 doesn’t exist by default in Debian. Win modems are also not usually found and setup because of the partial closed source driver modules are not included.
Live Knoppix Style Stand Alone Universal Installer:
Instead of installing the distro that is on these quickly outdated live CD’s, a customized version of these live CD’s would be used as a live net installer for any distribution based on the proxy apt sources model as explained above. An a- political Live CD who’s sole purpose is to discover and set up any and all hardware that can be legally supported, letting the end user decide whether or not to use the proprietary device drivers that would be provided on the installer CD. It would set up localizations, partitioning, and other base level functions, then use this as the base for hosting a user friendly graphical net install for whatever distro the end user chooses by typing in manually or browsing the Internet to the chosen distro’s home page and clicking on the (unique to that distro’s) apt sources list.
The benefits of this stand alone live CD net installer are many. A stand alone live installer would have it’s own version, update and release schedule that could speed up it’s development because it would not be tied to a whole distribution’s much longer release cycle.
Because the on CD distribution would not be used for actual installation, it need not be updated as often, just the installer functions would need to be updated.
It would reduce the bandwidth wasting download redundancy that is typical when updating distros that have been committed to iso’s and CD’s.
Not having to reinvent the wheel and contend with the complexities of building an installer for each new distribution would open the door to niche distro’s like home theater PC’s and such other special interests like turn key solutions for family run restaurants etc..(I know, like as if we need more distro’s. But is it that we have too many distro’s or is it that we have too many inadequate installers. If installation became trivial, who cares how many choices there are. If a niche distro can get a local pizza shop, your local plummer, your town library or a home based craft shop up and running with all the specific applications they need, I say great! Bring em on.)
Any Core distribution hosting a dynamic package repository like CVS could convert to, and take advantage of this installation method, and it would make sense for the whole community to get behind development of a live installer CD fully compatible with the various package management systems. As it is now they seem to be converging somewhat (apt for rpm etc.).
Commercial distro’s could also benefit from this type of installer by being able to sell a nicely boxed owners manual and an update-able multi session Live net installer CD on CDR, CDRW media or update-able to a temporary partition on the hard drive for those without cdwriters. This would increase the in store retail shelf life of their expensive boxed offerings exponentially. No matter how long they had been sitting on a retail shelf, customers would still get the current version. Of course some package labeling policies would need to be changed (no version numbers), but at great benefit to the distributions bottom lines in reduced outdated packaging costs, while keeping their offerings in view of the public in retail stores and outlets.
Because of the rapid speed of GNU/Linux development and security updates, the only method of installing that makes sense to me anymore is the net install style of installation because when updating off the shelf CD’s you end up doing nearly a complete new net install anyway. This method eliminates a time wasting step while increasing a products shelf life.
Pre Kit PC Distro-Contest Installer-Contest?:
Perhaps we should consider developing and then conducting a Live Net Installer competition before launching a contest that addresses the final fit and finish of a complete full featured GNU/Linux home desktop PC, or some variation on this theme. The delay would be worth it if it would mean getting it right the first time. An installer like this would certainly simplify the logistical problems of the contest, and it would greatly expand the number of platforms and hardware that the contest PC’s distro would support over and above the (The Linux Box’s) specified hardware. It would also let the distro contest entrants and reviewers concentrate on matters other than the installer, which if you have been following GNU/Linux for any amount of time, you must agree that most distro reviews seldom get much past the installer. It would be very nice to see separate reviews on the merits of a stand alone installer ( did it find your hardware and set everything up?) and the various distro’s fit, finish and usability (are there sensible defaults for all installed applications?).
Conclusion:
Quite possibly, by leveraging Klaus Knopper’s vision of a live CD, further developing it’s advanced hardware detection to what would be a quite rapidly maturing universal Live net installer CD, the GNU/Linux community as a whole could finally get past the installation of GNU/Linux and move on to the other matters of fit, finish and user friendliness that our coveted prospective MS Windows converts have become accustomed to and expect. Why do I say coveted? Because each and every new or converted user of GNU/Linux gives strength and political clout to the community as a whole. Third party application developers, proprietary or otherwise won’t throw their hats into the GNU/Linux ring until the numbers make sense, and politicians respond to issues based on polls by the numbers. We need these numbers to counter the threats of software patents and the freight train known as Digital Rights Management/Trusted Computing that professor Eben Moglen referred to during his talk at Harvard University’s JOLT (Journal on Law and Technology) as likening it to the military take over of the hardware of the net. We also need many more people using GNU/Linux friendly media and document formats to counter the rapidly encroaching threat of Microsoft’s proprietary formats as the defacto standard. That if successful will impose a virtual Microsoft document transfer tax on us all. It would be sad to need to install a Microsoft DRM client on top of, and a controller of, our free as in freedom GNU/Linux boxes in order to access any desirable proprietary content.
Discuss this in The Linux Box forum